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#117733 - 11/12/06 02:31 PM
Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrailia
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Ed Frawley
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2136
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I am looking for some feedback from Australian breeders concerning Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com. I have some serious issues going on with this guy and would appreciate some feed back from others from his country.
I will be writing an article to detail my issues with him.
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#117735 - 11/13/06 05:57 AM
Re: Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrailia
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Brendan Lynam
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 15
Loc: Sydney Australia
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Hi Ed,
I just received two of your DVD’s off my Texan girlfriend for a birthday present- great work.
I used to be a regular visitor to the Von Forrell website as it is a great resource for researching the ancestry of a number of famous dogs. I have had email correspondence with Kris asking him about his breeding program. He was usually polite in his responses.
While he has put together a great website, as I browsed through it (in some detail) I noticed some aspects of his breeding program that weren’t consistent with the advice of a number of people who’s opinions I have come to respect (your included Ed). For example, his opinion of the ability of Stormfront’s Brawnson to produce himself seems way too high. Especially since the one litter he had sired by Brawnson was mediocre by his own admission. Nevertheless, two of his current studs, Pongo and Agassi, are the son and grandson of Brawson respectively. In addition, it worries me that he strives to produce a “blocky” structure in the GSD and seems to not pay enough attention to hips. When I emailed him regarding these matters he didn’t respond- I guess he didn’t appreciate my criticisms (fair enough).
Having said that he has used Gento and Natan semen to sire some of his past litters. I guess that means he has been a customer of yours Ed. According to his website he still has Natan and Gento semens frozen for future use.
I would be very interested to hear your opinion of Kris and his breeding program. I have the highest respect for you as a breeder and trainer and am always interested to hear outsider’s opinions of the Australian working dog scene.
Hope you had a nice Memorial Day weekend!
Brendan
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#117736 - 11/13/06 11:46 AM
Re: Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrai
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Ed Frawley
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2136
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My issues with Mr. Kotsopoulous are not about his decision to breed one dog over another. Thats a personal decision every breeder has the right to make. Some are luckier than others, some make better decisions than others. I don't follow is breeding program close enough to have an opinion.
Mr. Kotsopoulous has until Wed of this week to clear some business problems with me or I will be publishing a detailed article on exactly what has transpired between us. I don't like taking things to this level but will if the need arises.
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#117737 - 11/14/06 01:54 AM
Re: Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrai
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Brendan Lynam
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 15
Loc: Sydney Australia
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Ed
regardless of what happens, would it be possible for you to PM me with a short description of what has transpired between you and Kris?
I have come close to purchasing a Von Forell puppy in the past and haven't ruled out doing so in the future.
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#117738 - 11/14/06 07:30 AM
Re: Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrai
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Ed Frawley
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2136
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I'll do better than that. If he does not deal with issues by tomorrow morning I will post an article about it on my web site and this discussion forum. He has a tendency of ignoring conflict and emails. Right now the clock is ticking for him.
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#117739 - 11/14/06 09:30 PM
Re: Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrai
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Ed Frawley
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2136
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Am still looking for some Australian feed back on this guy.
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#117903 - 11/15/06 10:10 AM
Re: Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrai
[Re: Ed Frawley]
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Ed Frawley
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2136
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The reason I started this thread on Von Forell Kennels in Australia http://vonforell.com/templates/index.php and Kris Kotsopoulous was because many years ago (early 1990's) I made the mistake of agreeing to sell Kris Kotsopoulous frozen semen from my stud dog Natan Busecker Schloss.
I shipped Mr. Kotsopoulous 49 straws of semen. Which turns out to have been crazy for only one or two breeding.
While I had collected about Natan’s 100 straws of semen for my personal use I did not have a lot of faith in ever being able to produce litters with it.
Well this has all changed. In the past 6 months I have whelped 2 litters (19 puppies) from Natan’s frozen semen (he died in January of 1997) using a total of 8 straws of semen (4 straws per litter) The second litter was born November 5th.
I was naïve in dealing with Kris Kotsopoulous. I never did a background on him and I should have. He paid for one breeding, the collection fees and the shipping fees to Australia. I told him I would in fact sign two litter applications so he could recoup the collection and shipping fees. I also told him if he bred other litters I would sell the stud rights for a $500.00 stud fee.
I now have strong reason to believe that Kris Kotsopoulous has indeed played games with my semen. He claims to have used 19 straws of semen to produce 1 litter of puppies. According to my experience this is enough semen to produce close to 5 litters. When I attempt to contact him he either ignores my emails or comes up with excuses on what’s in fact happened.
Mr Kotsopoulous claimed to still have 28 straws of semen left. I told him I wanted 20 straws back. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on him using 19 straws for 1 litter.
I told him about my two litters from 8 straws. I told him I would allow him to keep 8 of the alleged 28 remaining straws and I would then sign two additional litter applications for those 8 straws. The additional free stud fee would cover the storage for the 20 straws of semen over these years.
I made it very clear that I then wanted the last 20 straws. I would pay the shipping fees back to the states and if he did not want the free stud fee I would pay for storing the 20 straws for the period they were in Australia.
I made it clear that because of this 19 straw issue I did not want anything to do with him selling Natan semen.
Well all I now get from Kris Kotsopoulous is excuses. Since last Friday I have told him (about 10 times) that I was going to go public with this issue if I did not come to an agreement.
Most of his very few emails are sarcastic arrogant denials. Even as late as yesterday afternoon he told me he would get back to me after coming out of a meeting he was in. This morning – nothing.
The only thing Mr. Kotsopoulous has done is remove my copyrighted photo of Natan from his web site. That was because on Saturday I demanded he do so or I would file a Digital Millennium Copyright Complaint with the search engines concerning his unauthorized use of my registered copyright material. We do this all the time and have a great deal of success with having web sites removed from the search engines for copyright violations. He did not want to risk that.
It makes me wonder how Mr. Kotsopoulouscan finds the time to take photos off his web site yet ignore the more serious issue of the solving the semen? This all never would have had to happen had he chose to deal with problem.
Only Kris Kotsopoulous knows for sure what has transpired with my semen. I have my opinions. One of which is that it no longer exists, which is why he is in avoidance on dealing with it. I may be wrong but that’s what I believe. Why would anyone take the position of a sarcastic arrogant ass rather than simply dealing with this like a professional?
I am going to write the various kennel clubs in Australia and register my concerns about Mr. Kotsopoulous. I will recommend that they DNA test all of his past litters to see if he has used semen and then registered litters under a different stud dogs names. The Australians have been dealing with frozen semen for many more years than we Americans. They have a lot of experience with these issues.
If anyone would ever ask me about Kris Kotsopoulous I would now tell them that I would never buy a dog leash from this guy much less a dog. From my experience I don’t believe him to be an honest or ethical person.
Edited by Ed Frawley (11/15/06 10:11 AM)
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#117932 - 11/15/06 01:04 PM
Re: Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrai
[Re: Ed Frawley]
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Shaun Kelly
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 13
Loc: San Diego, Ca, USA
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This is really unfortunate. I know I wouldnt want to tick off Ed. Cant you use your ties with law inforcement some how? I really hope things work out for you and you get your straws back.
Please keep us updated on how this works out.
Thanks
Shaun
_________________________
Cubs win! Cubs win!
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#117982 - 11/15/06 06:04 PM
Re: Kris Kotsopoulous & vonforell.com in Austrai
[Re: Shaun Kelly]
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steven sullivan
Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 75
Loc: North Shore,Massachusetts
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Hey Ed,sorry to hear about your problem,lets just say for instance that this person does send you back your straws how can you tell that it is the actual semen from Natan Busecker Schloss and not semen from another dog?I do not know anything about frozen semen or straws but I would not put it pass this guy to try a fast one on you.
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